The Tai Chi point
Thu, 05/27/2010 - 1:17am
"Taichi have Yin-Yang. But Yin-Yang is not Tachi. To be Taichi Yin-Yang must be one. To be one they must have the three...."
It is our topic in Moscow workshop. Let's discuss..
Sat, 05/29/2010 - 4:54pm
#2
yes, the neutral point is the
yes, the neutral point is the tai chi point. i think it's a tough concept because your attention on the point has to be pretty sharp... definitely level seven material.
what are your thoughts dasha? your very close to level 7 (or may already be by now).
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 8:32am
#3
I won't even pretend to know
I won't even pretend to know what the "neutral point" is... 
Wish I was there when master Sam was explaining it...
From a general Taoist cosmological point of view, there is the often underplayed concept of triplex unity which might be relavent here. In the context of Yin / Yang theory, triplex unity implies a third component (represented by the boundary between Yin and Yang) which both seperates and harmonizes Yin and Yang.
In the physical realm, as it applies to one's body as whole, perhaps, this third entity is the correct physical structure which both differentiates and hardmonizes the Yin and Yang aspects of the physical body? I'm not sure what this third entity would be when you look at two players in physical contact.
In any case, I look forward to more discussion of the neutral point as it applies at various levels...
Cheers!
Joey
Mon, 08/30/2010 - 12:25am
#4
welcome
In the physical realm, as it applies to one's body as whole, perhaps, this third entity is the correct physical structure which both differentiates and hardmonizes the Yin and Yang aspects of the physical body? I'm not sure what this third entity would be when you look at two players in physical contact.
hey joey, welcome to the i liq chuan forum, nice to see you posting here!
the tai chi point in this case is at the point of contact. since even the point of contact has a circle, it has a center. if it has a center you can make a cross. of course, we want to develop spherical power, so we would have three axes, but in order to keep the discussion a bit more simple, we'll confine ourselves to one dimension only and discuss propelling frontal power.
first here is a basic diagram outlining the point of contact
more to come but i'm out of time for today
Tue, 08/31/2010 - 12:33pm
#5
where is the cross in this diagram?
i like this idea, but i'm not clear on where the cross is in this diagram.
Tue, 08/31/2010 - 8:39pm
#6
Re:
i like this idea, but i'm not clear on where the cross is in this diagram.
yeah, sorry that diagram was intended to be viewed with the two below (and i should have spent a little more time with it to make sure the tai chi point was in the center). in the above diagram we see the point of contact from the side so to speak so we see how the tissue bunches up on the yang side of the point due to engagement (the triangle), and so is "solid".
so here we see the point of contact from "below" or from the "front" however you want to look at it.
i think it's clear by looking at the photo that the "heel" of the hand will be the highest point due to it being the greatest area of pressure, and that this individual is propelling anti / counter clockwise force (clockwise from our point of view) in the frontal plane.
so using the heel as the highest point we get the circle / center /cross in the illustration. since the center itself is actually the tai chi point i think we need to extend the illustration out to each axis since the true center is a singularity we need to have a little more room to illustrate.
each quarter of the arc will be either yin or yang relative to the force being propelled at the given moment, in this case counter clockwise force.
now having the tai chi point be both beginning and end is where things get really interesting, and also start getting a little beyond my skill level.
so here i'd like to reference the solar flare video again.
You can see the circular energy from the point of eruption as the neutral point (both beginning and end) as well as projecting and expanding out while absorbing and condensing in simultaneously.
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Tue, 08/31/2010 - 11:56pm
#7
so continuing from above, the
so continuing from above, the tricky part of the whole thing is that the tai chi point is what keeps the point / energy balanced, otherwise the point will be only yin or only yang.
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 5:48am
#8
Range? Tai Chi Point
As was said, I dont pretend to know what this is,either.
But At least theoratically I believe I understand it now. (thanks to your diagrams ashe).
(will work hard to get to know/realize it by body-mind also).
Questions?
The diagrams in this topic only relate to when the point of contact is at the palm balls/root?
What when the point of contact is on the lower foreaarms, how would it be there?
I know this is way over my skill or comprehension level, but realizing all this theoretically helps a lot to focus in training.
greetings
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 3:32pm
#9
Sifu has said the
Sifu has said the "manifesting the crossroads (i.e. the tai chi point) is the quality of the sticky hand (level 7). So since I'm only level 5 almost 6, my contributions to this discussion should merely be seen as my explorations of the concept, rather than any kind of official word.
That being said, after thinking about the tai chi point more now, and having spent a lot if time lately reviewing the advanced sticky hand DVD, in which Sifu talks about it a lot, I think the MAIN significance is that the point is where it (the force / energy) starts is where it ends.
Wed, 09/01/2010 - 10:32pm
#10
In the above example we see
So i put together a few more illustrations to discuss. hope they help.
(click image to enlarge)
In the above example we see that the tai chi point is both beginning and end.
and above we see how there is another circle / center / cross at the point as well.
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 1:35pm
#11
Thanks for the clarifying images - and some ideas.
Great diagrams! thanks for taking the time. I see more what you mean.
I find it helpful to think of it as Sifu says: 'Completing the Circle'. Any point along a circle must be both beginning and end. To control the mass, the energy must return as well as go out. If the end of the circle is not the same as the beginning, you don't have a circle.
Any changes at the point using the cross must recognize this principle. For example, in the photo with Sifu and Ashe - following the four strategies - one arm is being opened and one closed. The position of the poc (point of contact) in 3 dimensions relative to the center of mass tells us how to engage.
What is important at the poc is that the neutral/taichi point be maintained. Otherwise, we cannot change fast enough. We have to reengage neutral to change the polarity. Change the polarity means moving from yin to yang or yang to yin. Losing neutral means we will neither be able to penetrate the opponents spheres, nor will we have maintained the cross and, of course, the circles. Until we get the neutral point back, engagement breaks down.
Another aspect of 'Completing the Circle' at the point of contact is the idea of complimentary energy or force. This is how to begin to make the opponent stick to you.
Sifu has shown how, using 'close - close' or 'open - open', incoming force can be returned at the poc to prevent your opponent from having a 'point of application' or 'no landing'. Without maintaining close - close, the force will land and possibly, if you can't change to recover, penetrate your spheres.
In short, 'close - close' tells us which quadrant of the circle to maintain the energy at that moment... which part of the cross gets which energy. Tally means the energy at the cross at the poc matches the cross at the center of mass or however many circles you can keep your attention on as you spin.
Lose the neutral point and there's no circles, no change and no engagement - No 'harmonize with the opponent'.
As your awareness builds up and by keeping the neutral point, you can move from yin OR yang at the poc, to maintaining yin AND yang, which is taichi energy. As dasha mentioned in the first post, the 'three' is yin, yang and neutral. Taichi point is maintaining the neutral point and, since the neutral point has both yin and yang energies, all three energies through all three planes.
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 2:24am
#12
Wow... Great
Wow... Great discussion!
Ashe, great diagrams indeed!
Thank you so very much guys for the most lucid explanation of the concepts.
Cheers
Joey
I think I heard Sifu refer to this as the yin, yang and the neutral ...
Peter