if i understand what Sifu has been teaching correctly-

the iron shirt training is a lot about the spinning force of coordination.  with more awareness you can create and spin more and more layers within the body, but the spinning shares a relationship with the center of cravity force.  if you can spin, you can maintain the center on the feet, if you loose the center on the feet you can no longer open/close/spin.  

if you can control the mass and effectt he feet then he won't be able to spin and create the layers.

My skill level is not quite adequate. i cannot control the opponents mass even with my hands on his torso -- it feels like touching a single piece of solid rock ( or maybe this is just the illusion that i'm led to believe). My feeling at that time was that i might be able to break the iron shirt "awareness" by pushing at his throat. 

Agree with your assessment tho ... 

Lipyeow

yeah, if the skill level isn't there then it's tough.  that's the same problem i had for a long time trying to get something going here in AZ.  i just didn't have the skill level to be able to show other people how cool this stuff is, so i couldn't get anyone interested in training.

Here is my take on Iron Shirt techniques. The body is brilliant enough to build muscle tissue anywhere if certain conditions are created. This is one of the methods for so called "yin qi gong" (armpits, throat, back of the neck, below the sternum etc.) So someone may simply have the contractile ability to meet the force and then use a less refined version of the pung (pen) (w/o complex 3-d action with multi-layered circulation).

As for penetrating the golden armor, I think that it would depend a lot on what the mechanism of the armor is. You may not be able to break the surface of the container, but you can send an impulse deep into it and cause the surface vibrations to significantly judder the contents. These vibrations can cause serious injury to the internal organs, especially if you can generate a standing wave and control the apex.

One of the ways of protecting the organs from harm is by dissipating the force by relaxing and redirecting, which can then allow for a second opportunity to attack. For example, adding a twisting action to your punch, will complicate the force with additional torque, and can allow for penetration past the golden bell. There are also other ways of complicating the timing and trajectory of the impulse that would make it difficult to meet or dissipate.

Then of course there is the absorb/project cycle with I Liq Chuan characteristic use of I Qi Li.

http://youtu.be/j4RUMAt_Qq8

thx.

the training i've been exposed to is a specific kind of unification with relaxation at the foundation. any hardness at the surface is an initial accomplishment only. internediate training can described as 'packing' and includes a hydraulic unification of the soft tissues especially the fascia at the cavities of the body. if unified in this way any waves or vibrations just pass right through. at the most complete levels, the body remains empty, loose and full with the protective quality manifesting as needed in the specific area of the body. nothing goes in.

you coud say the three levels follow the ILC progression from structure to relaxation to energy. 

to counter the first two levels of skill, you must inhibit the sinking quality in the dantien to penetrate to the center. to counter the third you must capture the mind.

the most important awareness to be able to penetrate is to be very clear on the 6 energies and 3 dimensions when engaging the opponents mass. more and more mindfulness. just follow the ILC progression of training.

just one man's experience.

best regards,

Hi Kelley,

Your explanation certainly ring the 'Golden Bell' for me. I have awaken to see a clear imagage that  I can talk your "mind" off so you could have a premature senior moment and take the "Iron Shirt" off your back for me next time you try to "project", haha, because you just try to be nice,evne when you absent minded !

You may keep the "Golden Robe" because it tailor fit you for the way you are.

Ciao

lim

hey Lip,

I am familiar with the CMC teacher you are talking
about. He's master hwang*sp i believe. also, i don't believe it was iron
shirt that you were experiencing. when firmly rooted/highly skilled,
think of yourself as becoming like a fine razor. incoming energy, that
is not as sharp (skilled) as yours, could split it in half fairly
easily.

what you pressed one and felt, i believe, was probably his
structure that he exposed to you. he is a very capable practitioner.
i'm sure you slid your hand up to his neck, but could you penetrate into
him? once the committment is made to go and attempt to penetrate the
neck, he would probably lock your hand (where he would break it at the
wrist), the arm (where he could snap it in half at the elbow), or some
other sort of thing like this at the moment you are committed.

similarly
to when the buff fellow was working out with him at the park. when he
shot for his neck, his wife and another local taiji practitioner rushed
to break up the encounter before it got to the next level, which would
have been fighting, rather than pushing. the buff guy was very committed
to his move and was very lucky that he did not get seriously hurt. as
an observer to the encounter, master hwang*sp? was still very centered,
had full control over the buff guy, and could have easily done work to
him.

the next time you get to work with a skilled, friendly taiji
player, you should ask them to run a similar scenario. remember though,
the level of intensity is set by the aggressor. higher the committment,
the further you will be upset/uprooted (if he is more skilled than you
are). i don't recommend further experimentation with too many outsiders
because a committment to the neck is often looked at as a door to the
next level of intensity.

hope this helps a little!

-mr jong

i forgot to mention, if he felt like a mountain when you were pushing on him, it's because you probably were pushing on rock. when you are highly skilled, you can redirect the incoming force directly into the ground. so yes, it should have felt like you were pushing on the ground if he did this. don't worry, again, no iron shirt here.

-mr jong

Couldn't help posting a brief update on our encounter with Master Hwang last Friday.

Sifu off balanced him but was extremely polite.

His ego slightly bruised he tried to take it out on me ... i did the throat grab again and pushed him to his heels, but i was polite and didn't go further, so he came back and pushed me around a bit. Then he started "teaching" me ... 

Sifu got pissed and got Steve to play with him. Steve did the throat grab and never let go. Master Hwang hissed at Steve and steve just extended his arm ... and "invited" him to show him what he can do ... until Sifu broke them up ...

i don't think he could do anything to the throat grab when his structure is broken already ... but then what do i know ...

Lipyeow

Sorry to be a “devil’s advocate”.  I'm a believer in self reflection.  Perhaps it takes an ego to bait an ego? We can be gracious losers as well as gracious winners.  I believe, a gracious winner is not boastful and their renown spreads by honest words from those they touch.

Regardless of the outcome, so long as we are gracious, the world will think us honorable.  When we meet someone’s ego head on with our own ego, we end up loosing our sense of graciousness and honor, and notoriety spreads fast.  I think, even the least skilled can be our teacher.

Showing anger is not the Buddhist way, and would eventually reflect back on us.  So I would doubt Sam got pissed off.  That example in itself is not a good quality of a leader.  Should we as students get pissed off and follow that example?  Surely that cannot be.

As you know, what you say in an online forum may be forever stored in the electronic ether.  What we say about him online becomes his legacy.  I would like Sam Chin to be remembered as honorable, and not the man that got pissed off.

Hello blee,

sorry i should have chosen my words more carefully. "Pissed" is not the right word. Sifu wasn't pissed in the sense of losing control to anger and/or ego. It was more about a sense of what is appropriate behavior and what is disrespectful behavior. Being honorable, humble, & gracious, does not mean that we should be stepped over. I'm never good with words, so i think it's better that Sifu explains things himself to you folks.

Lipyeow